Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So you mentioned the things that we produce on our farm. Raw milk happens to be one of those things. So these types of stories, these types of raids, these types of, in our opinion, encroachments are very personal to us. They hit home to us because we do have raw milk on this farm. And in Missouri, it is legal to sell raw milk off of your farm. And we do.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: So it seems like every other week we're hearing about a farm raid on a small farm here in the United States of America. And there was yet another one on May 29 of 2024 this year, just a couple of weeks ago, there was a farm raided in Michigan, a cooperative of private association. They were raided by the Michigan Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. We're going to talk about that today. Stick around because we're going to cover some food freedom.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Duster Mud podcast. This is episode 68. My name is Rich.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: And I'm Shelley, and we spent 25.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: Years in the United States Air Force. I was a fighter pilot. We traveled the world, and as that career ended, we decided that we were going to move to the Ozarks of southern Missouri, and we started a farm and this podcast. Today, we're going to focus the podcast on food and freedom.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: One of the reasons that we started this farm was about food freedom. We are very passionate about having good food and growing the exact food that we want to eat and want to be able to have access to it.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: It's funny, as we were preparing for the podcast, I found myself thinking, how did we get here? Like, how did we get to the point where we would be concerned enough to talk about this topic? Because when we were flying jets and traveling the world, we weren't concerned with this.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: No, not really. We were concerned about other things. We were concerned about freedom at large. We were concerned about the defense of the country and making sure that people were. While we were overseas and you were flying jets, we were concerned about people being able to sleep at night and not worry that the front lines were taken care of wherever they happened to be. So there's always been a concern for freedom. Being 25 year veteran family.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like our concern for freedom has shifted a little bit from a personal perspective. Hannah, obviously, is still flying jets in Europe defending our freedoms, but we have transitioned a little bit and are now really focused on the freedoms associated with food and our rights as humans to food and to make the decisions that we want to make over what food we put into our bodies. And the more we learn and the more we hear and the more we research, it becomes more of an internal thing for me that feels. Feeling that my freedoms are being encroached upon as a human, really, not just an american.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I think one of the ways that we might have gotten here was in 2019, we stopped eating the standard american diet. We started eating a ketogenic diet, which was absolutely the opposite way that we'd been taught to eat for 30 something years, 40 whatever years of our lives. We were taught to eat the standard american diet. You know, eat all your grains and cut out your fats, eat a fat free diet. And when we sat for weeks and months on end and educated ourselves in a way of eating that was against what the federal government was saying, we began to question every single thing around the concept of food, and our eyes began to be opened to the fact that perhaps the food industry doesn't necessarily have all of our best interest at heart with their policies. And we started saying, wait a second.
What's up with this policy? And what's up with that policy? And why have they been lying to us all of these years with the cholesterol hypothesis and so forth? And so as we went forward, we continued to question things. We continued to eat differently than the rest of the people that we knew around us, even. And the more that we got educated, we started diving further and further down into the proverbial rabbit hole of food offerings. And whenever we started our farm, it. The snowball just got bigger.
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it did. So here's what happened. On May 29, 2024, officials from the Michigan Department of Agriculture and Rural Development conducted a raid on nourish cooperative in Marcellus, Michigan. During the raid, 248 gallons of raw milk and 1200 organic eggs were confiscated. State employees, including human and animal food inspectors, cited the inability to verify inspectors details for the raw cheese produced by the co op as the reason for the seizure. Despite the co op providing all necessary documentation, the raid proceeded, highlighting the increasing scrutiny and regulation of raw milk and raw milk products.
So you mentioned the things that we produce on our farm. Raw milk happens to be one of those things. So these types of stories, these types of raids, these types of, in our opinion, encroachments are very personal to us. They hit home to us because we do have raw milk on this farm. And in Missouri, it is legal to sell raw milk off of your farm. And we do so. So we are raw milk producers.
Thus, the consistent, constant attacks on raw milk are hitting really close to home.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: You start to feel a little bit threatened by, even though it's completely legal, in the state of Missouri to do what we're doing. It does make you just, it makes all your little spidey senses and hairs get a little bit bristly and say, wait a second, I don't, I'm sorry, I don't under. I don't understand. And I'm a little bit concerned.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: With what's happening.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely concerns.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: The, you know, eyes open feelers are out. A little bit of a defensive crouch for sure.
What is, what's happening? What's going on.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: So the more we looked into this particular one right now, currently, this moment in history, the, the attacks on raw milk are being fueled by the avian influenza being in dairy cows.
And it is an opportunity for government agencies and officials to have a little bit more fuel in their fire for the raids and the things that are happening.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: I'm going to misquote this, but I'm pretty sure it has been said on some sides of the aisle to never let a crisis go to waste. And so the opportunity, with something coming on as an infectious situation that we've all lived through in the past, then this is an opportunity. We don't want to let that go to waste, to go after the thing that you might have wanted to already. And it just. Absolutely. Yeah. For sure. Here's the fuel or here's the reason, and the door just swings wide open for them.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: The Michigan Department of Health and Human Services and the Michigan Department of Agriculture and Rural Development have consistently reminded residents of the risks associated with consuming raw milk, emphasizing the need for caution amid the avian influenza outbreak. So they are like, these two things, to me, at least, are being associated.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: And while there are, as of now, as of recording here, we're June 19. As of this recording, there are three cases on the CDC's website confirmed of human avian influenza virus after contact with infected dairy cattle. Okay, so there are three known cases tested.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Cases verified, test positive or presumed positive.
[00:09:34] Speaker A: You can see, you can find both the verbiage for both on FDA and CDC websites. There is only one test for human avian influenza. It is done. The test comes from the CDC directly. As of this moment in time, there have been 44 tests conducted in this calendar year in 2024. So they did do the avian influenza tests, and they did come back positive for avian influenza.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: Okay, did they list what the symptoms were, how long they lasted, and how was death imminent? What were.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: In two of the three cases, they had pink eye conjunctivitis. And in the third case, they had basically sinusitis as well as pink eye.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: So they got pink eye and a cold.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: Like that was it.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Correct. That was it.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: And is it.
It's just time. Just. It goes away.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: Like, well, I mean, they, they gave a medicine and treated the symptoms that they were experiencing.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. So three cases, but we're really cracking down on raw milk.
[00:11:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And with that, if you keep digging. Now, this one isn't easy to find, but if you keep digging on the CDC's website, I'm going to quote directly, I wrote it down directly from the CDC's website, and you're going to put.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: It on the screen.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: Okay. We do not know at this time if avian influenza a viruses can be transmitted to people through consumption of raw milk and products made from raw milk from infected cows.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: So they have no idea we're gonna crack down on something that we really actually don't even know if it's a thing.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: But it's an opportunity to crack down on something that you don't like.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: Well, that's what leads us to believe that maybe it is.
They're cracking down because of. It's an opportunity. Right. If you have no, like, if you yourself say, we don't know if it can be transmitted, like, if, then the CDC says that. The CDC says that.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Then why is the Michigan Department of Agriculture slamming this co op?
That's just the question. And I want to say we are not conspiracy theorists at all. Like, at all. We just like to know what's true. We like to know the facts. We like to know what's really going on and what actions do we need to take as business owners and human beings. And that's it. Right, right. So based on the facts.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: Well, we certainly, we certainly don't know that there are actual health concerns. We don't know that there is a government presumption that there are health concerns with no evidence behind it, that there are health concerns associated with the consumption of the raw milk and this virus. So that would lead me to think we're looking at a government overreach issue.
Agencies that are able to wield power, and thus they are.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: And they are able to, because there was a court case back in 1984 that gave them a lot of authority within the judicial system.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So when Congress passes laws, they can't get into all of the details. Like all of the little bitty, nitty gritty details. Right. They pass an overarching law. And then that 1984 case, the Supreme Court decided that in order to get down into all of the little nitty bitty details. The government agencies that are in charge of those details would be the ones to come up with all of the rules and regulations that sort of form the foundation or support the big congressional law.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: So the agencies are charged with writing the policies. Let's take the Department of agriculture and the USDA is charged with writing policies for agriculture and food and enforcing them. Yeah, like, that's not normally normal.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:33] Speaker B: It's not normally the way things are done. It's not normally, like single tier, you know.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: So they're writing the policies and they're making up the rules and they're, quote, enforcing them to their perception. And then if you, as the farmer or whatever you happen to be doing and you're confronted with an agency, you now can take that to court. But if you take that to court, back to the Chevron doctrine, you have to rely on the judge to say what's right or wrong in the case. But they defer to the agencies. So they are, they write them, they enforce them, and they judge on them.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
That the Chevron deference or Chevron doctrine is what that ruling is referred to that Shelley mentioned the Supreme Court ruled on. And within that, it basically allows the judicial system, the judges, to just defer to the authorities. Unless there's something that's, like, ridiculous. Basically. It's not exactly how it's worded, but, you know, unless it's. It's ridiculous. The judge defers to the agencies. And if you take. We discussed a case here that happened here in Missouri just a few weeks ago with Wyatt and the new Melli Food co op and where Wyatt, the inspector, showed up to his food co op, which is a private membership association, and Wyatt just questioned them. I don't understand. Help me understand. And through that series of questioning, he ended up on the wrong side of the judge in the case and was held in contempt of court and thrown in jail. So, like the judges, the judicial system is not at least these cases that.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: We'Re talking about, the ones currently presented.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: Yeah. The judges are not falling on the side of the people. They are falling on the side of the agencies.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: So government overreach, being that they're, they're taking the policies that they have written and they are coming in and they are forcefully, in this case, with the farmers and the producers. They're coming into these private membership associations, and they are forcefully removing these people's food products and confiscating it as if it were cocaine. You just as well be on the border with cocaine with an illegal substance. That's the way these farmers are being treated. Their foods are being confiscated. Now remember, these foods are not for sale to Walmart. This is a private membership association. The people who are buying these foods chose to buy these foods. They chose to belong to a membership and say, I want to buy these foods. These are not for public commerce at all. And these, these agency officers are going in and how much milk and how many eggs did you say they dumped or confiscated?
[00:18:02] Speaker A: 248 gallons of milk and 1200 organic eggs in this rate.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: After they showed them the proper documentation, they said, well, we're going to take it anyway, essentially.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: So there's, it is seeming that there is not a thing that you, as the producer, farmer, co op organizer, there is not a thing that you can do.
I'd like to call my lawyer before you take my milk. I mean, there's, there's not, there's not anything that you can do. They can just take it and there's, there. Where's the financial recourse? Where, where's anything that you can do in order to protect yourself from these agencies in this situation?
Where's the action league? I guess there is a farmer's defense action league that everyone should probably belong to that grows food, but kind of like homeschool legal defense. But it. How concerning how like soul crushing to know that they can just, they don't even have to knock.
They can just, if you're in business or you're, or you're, or you're producing something and selling something or trading for whatever, they, they have all carte blanche authority to come in and confiscate your belongings.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: Yes, it would. It would appear that way.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: It appears that way. Anyway. That's, that's my, that's mind boggling, y'all.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
So the, the consumers, like the, the people that were relying on those products are just sort of left out also. So if you've got, you know, almost 250 gallons of milk, that's a lot of folks that are relying on that product.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Speaking of relying on, I'm going to over here real quick. So we sell at a farmer's market in Forsyth, Missouri, state of Missouri, it's legal to sell raw milk off farm and to deliver raw milk. We were told we have to stop doing that.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: We were told that the Taney county health inspector does not allow delivery of raw milk within Taney county, though it.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: Is legal in the state of Missouri.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: Apparently a county can restrict.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: I don't know how much further they can. It's interesting. We're going to do a little bit more research on that. I want to talk to our Douglas county health inspector. Since we. We happen to be dealing with them right now for opening our store. I want to talk with them about how much further individual counties can go from the state laws. I don't know.
I don't necessarily believe that that's true.
We gotta.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: But we choose to comply, of course. Okay. We won't do that anymore. So if you've been getting raw milk from us in Forsyth, you're not gonna get it anymore. Not there.
Right.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: We can no longer deliver raw milk into Taney county, is the way I understand it.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: Fair enough.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: Until we get other amount of information.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Okay, so not only are the farmers affected by this. There. There's you on the other end, there's the. The consumer. There's me. Who wants to be able to consume raw milk. There are some people who believe that they can't drink pasteurized milk and need raw milk.
If they can't get their hands on it, then in their minds, their health is actually jeopardized by not having access to something that they believe benefits their health.
And the United States Department of Agriculture, in conjunction with various state Department of Agriculture, have decided, no, you don't.
You don't get to have what you believe is best for you. We'll let you know what's best for you.
[00:22:32] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:22:33] Speaker B: And so the consumers just.
Well, they wind up potentially breaking laws.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:42] Speaker B: In order to try to get their hands on something that's nutritious, order to work around a workaround. Yeah. Like, I didn't want to be, like a lawbreaker person. I really just wanted some milk.
I just wanted some milk.
And now I'm.
My livelihood is jeopardized for milk.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah. The Weston A. Price foundation, you know, they're. They're a huge advocate for raw milk and they. They house the website realmilk.com, of which we're members. And they. They highlighted in their. They did a recent post and such, and they highlighted, hey, guys, there is really no scientific evidence that back this up. And we believe that we, the Weston A. Price foundation, believe that this is more of a larger attack on raw milk. So it's not just us out there saying this thing, you know, the people that are in this deep, they're saying the same things.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: Yeah. So back to the attack on raw milk.
Set the avian influenza thing aside. The dairy industry is very large and it is very, very rich. It is very powerful. And they follow a lot of rules and they spend a lot of money to do it. They produce pasteurized milk for a very large population of people, and they have to jump through a lot of flaming hoops as well in order to be in business for themselves. And I think that maybe, to be devil's advocate, one of the things that would be concerning for them is, look, I've got multiple millions of dollars into this system in order to follow the rules, and you're out there milking a cow and selling milk on the side, not following any rules that have been put in place for dairy products in this country. And I'll be darned if you're going to do that. And we're going to lobby against it, and we're going to see to it that government officials are put into place in order to make sure that what we're doing is enforced.
Maybe there's something there.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: Yep. Absolutely.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So Representative Massey talks about that quite often, actually. You can find headlines about. Representative Massey from Kentucky is consistently talking about the large corporations and government agencies, lobbyists and elected officials, how they're all working in cahoots, all working together. You know, he talks about there are four meat producers that are producing 85% of this nation's meat. Like, whenever you have those types of monopolies, you get this type of effect, and thus the reason why there are rules and laws against monopolies. Right, right. But these don't fall into it because there's four. Right. There's not just one. So it's not a monopoly.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Right.
[00:26:21] Speaker A: So, but when all four of them are working in concert with one another. All.
And when you have 85% of the market share, there's a lot there.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:33] Speaker A: And so it's fairly easy for you then to have influence and to ensure that that influence gets you what you want, which is what you're talking about. If. If I have to follow the rules, and that costs me money, and you don't have to follow the rules, thus you don't have to pay that money. I'm now disadvantaged, and I don't. I don't want that.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: And so I will use my big, you know, the oomph that I have to make sure that you're put out of business.
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: And that.
Yeah. Just look at Representative Massey. He talks about that happening all the time.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: Yep. So just another reason that they might be on the warpath.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
We'll sort of wrap this up with the broader idea or discussion on just food freedom writ large, food freedom in general. And the man I want, I personally want to be able to eat the food that I want to eat.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
Same.
And you probably feel the same way.
Yeah.
It's quite simple, really.
[00:28:04] Speaker A: The idea that there are government agencies that are.
Who admit themselves that there's no science behind it, making decisions on what I can and can't eat for my health, like, what is happening.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: If I want my milk raw, I should be able to have my milk raw.
Just like I get to decide how raw I want my steak.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:41] Speaker B: And just like, you get to decide.
[00:28:43] Speaker A: How, you know, I had never really thought of that. You're allowed to buy your steak raw, but not your milk. Your milk. You have to buy cooked.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: Like, what? What?
[00:28:56] Speaker A: That's.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:59] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: This morning I was very adamant. I'm like, would you like some raw milk with your breakfast?
[00:29:08] Speaker A: Yes, I would. Yes, actually.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Yes, actually, I would like some raw. Raw jersey milk with my breakfast. Oh, my goodness. It's very, very frustrating. It's really concerning the food. Freedom in this country is in jeopardy. Guys. If you're passionate about food freedom, contact your representative. Let them just know what you think about it.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: I think if there was a high note or a note to. Of hope, of hope, it would be the same drum. We pound a lot, and that is go find a local farmer, get to know that local farmer, build a relationship with them, and see what kind of really good food is available for you. And it might be something like raw milk. It might be something like pure Berkshire pork.
Try to find that in a grocery store.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Right.
You know, that said, might I add, we're very close to opening a store full of the meat in foods that we want to eat, except for raw milk. That would get us in trouble.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: That's not legal.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: That's not legal. But we are opening a store in downtown Ava.
[00:30:30] Speaker A: We are selling raw meat, though.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Raw meat, yes. And raw chicken, which is not considered meat, by the way. Chicken is not meat.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: We had to dive into the food laws and rules and regulations.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: That's right.
So we will have pastured, ethically raised chicken. We will have grass fed beef, GMO free berkshire forested pork, and some GMO free, amazing lamb, pasture raised katahdin lamb, along with a few other local items that we've been able to get to put in the store. So on Saturday, June 22, 22nd, there we go. Saturday, June 22, will be open at 09:00 in the morning. If you're interested, come and see us at our forsyth.
We will be at the store in Ava. If you are in the Forsyth area, we will have my daughter will be there. There will be people there selling our products as well. But if you're looking for rich and I specifically, we will be in Ava.
[00:31:42] Speaker A: But not at the farmers market.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: Not at the farmers market.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: Right across the street. Right.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: You'll see a big open now sign.
[00:31:49] Speaker A: It's literally right across the street from the farmers market.
[00:31:52] Speaker B: We love to see any and all of you. If you're interested in just saying hi or learning more about how we farm, what we farm, and what we have to offer, we will be there and look forward to meeting you.
[00:32:04] Speaker A: Yeah, we'd love to chat with you.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: And until next time, bye, y'all.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Bye, y'all.
