Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: There's all kinds of benefits to regenerative farming, whether you do corn or cows.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: And we love it like we do it. Yes, I'm saying all for it. Some negative things about the companies that are talking about going regenerative, but to.
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Restore the biodiversity, to restore its capability to be able to produce life, is what we're after. We saw some news the other day, and it looks like regenerative agriculture is the future of farming. The question is, if the big corporations get involved and government gets involved, is regenerative ag going to go? Even the term going to go the same way as the organic farming market went.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Welcome to the Duster Mud podcast, where we like to talk about food freedom and farming. My name is Rich, and I'm Shelley. After a 25 year career in the United States Air Force, three years ago, we retired from the air Force and moved to the ozarks of Missouri and started our own farm.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: We practice regenerative farming here at air to ground farms. But when I say regenerative farming, what am I even saying? What am I talking about? Do you know what regenerative farming is?
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Well, according to a recent Purdue study, if you do, you are in the distinct minority, because really, only about one in four people know what regenerative farming is.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: Now, most of us have heard, a lot of us have heard of regeneratively farmed, regeneratively raised. We might have heard the term, and.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: It sounds really good and like, we understand English, right? So the word regenerative, okay, to regenerate, got it.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: Right. That's to make something better, I would think.
[00:01:53] Speaker B: Yeah, like, that's got to be good. Put it back to the way that it was.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Right?
[00:01:57] Speaker B: And farming, we obviously know what that is. So, like, what is it, though? But actually, what is it? The interesting thing is we started researching for this particular podcast is there is no standardized definition of regenerative farming. So actually, I think, at least from what I can gather, you could define it however you want.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: And to some people, they really talk about water usage.
To others, they talk about soil and biodiversity and regenerating or making soil reappear.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: So there are different focuses within the regenerative farming space, or even the term within the larger aspect of it. But what do we say that it is? And what do some of the regenerative farming gurus out there, like Alan Savery or gabe brown, typically define it as?
[00:03:04] Speaker B: What we wrote down was a way, a means of agriculture that focuses on soil health, biodiversity, carbon sequestration, and holistic farming. Methods that aim to restore the ecosystem.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: The ecosystem at large, above and below ground. But in this particular topic, we're really. We really focus on what's happening underneath the ground.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And really part of the name of our farm. Air to ground. Yes. There's a play on the fact that I used to fly in the air. I'm a 15 e pilot, or I was, when I was in the United States Air Force and had a focus on the air. And now we are focused on farming, which is the ground. But then the additional meaning to that is the fact that sequestering carbon out of there and into the ground by our farming practices. And you really do that by focusing on growing soil, the biodiversity in the soil.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Right. Really increasing your topsoil in doing that. And what it will then do, you mentioned water, is it gives that soil more water absorption, like it can hold more water. Rather than just rushing off into Neverland, it will stay on the. On. On the.
The ground where it hit. And that was the two in air two. The number two ground. H two o. Just kind of representative of that molecule makeup. And there's just two of us, usually.
Okay, so regenerative farming. And this concept is about to boom.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Yeah. But as I mentioned with the Purdue study, the interesting thing is it has this halo effect.
It has this aura or air of good goodness. But when asked to actually define it, it's like 71% of people, almost three out of four people, cannot define regenerative farming. But yet it has this.
But it's good.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: Right. So a consumer is more apt then probably, to purchase a product that has been regeneratively created, but with a regenerative label on it.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: Yeah, but yet not really be able to tell you what that means.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: And that means something when we get into getting the corporations involved.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So speaking of big corporations, okay. There are a bunch of big corporations that are getting involved in regenerative agriculture.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: To the tune of mammalians, of dollars being invested into regeneratively created.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: Well, maybe. Right? Because as we talked about, there is no standardized, no government, no really anything definition of regenerative farming. Each of the companies can define it exactly how they want to.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: Okay, companies like who, though? General Mills.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: General Mills.
PepsiCo has invested about 200, I think, $230 million recently in regenerative agriculture. Danon.
Cargill.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: Cargill.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: I believe Cargill is. Their goal is to have 10 million acres in regenerative farming and to have helped educate 10 million farmers.
I think. I believe it was General mills. Their goal was to have a million acres in regenerative farming. And they each have different timelines and timeline, different ones associated with their stuff. But again, each of these companies have a different definition of what that regenerative farming means to their company.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: And these companies are investing in these initiatives in order to create more sustainability within their supply chain, to create a better environment overall, a better impact on the environment overall.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: So I smile because that is absolutely the, those are the talking points. That is the idealistic side of things. The rosy side is we are spending hundreds of. We, the companies, these large companies, we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars. And in order to better the environment, to better the, whichever their little piece of the puzzle they happen to have picked. And I say that because, Dan, their main, at least one of their main focuses is reducing methane production from dairy cows when they're chewing cut, stop cows.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: From farting when they're chewing cud.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: That's one of Dannon's major focuses. Cargill is, one of their major focuses is on the soil and ranching and beef cattle. So, like, each one of them are focused in a different place.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: General Mills, I think they put a lot of focus on cover crop because a lot of their stuff is grown by monocropping.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Right. And so if they do a cover crop, that would be a regenerative practice. And by implementing that, they have now produced regenerative food.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: No, not necessarily that they could. Let's just take cover cropping, for example. They could farm exactly like they're farming now.
And then when that crop gets tilled under at the end of the growing season, they plant something else in there, like grass or another crop or whatever. And now that's called a cover crop. The ground is covered during the time that it would normally just be laying there.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: That's a good thing.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: It's a good thing, but it doesn't mean that the crop that was previously grown, like, they're not growing it any differently. It's not like it's now regenerative.
Right. Like that they can cover crop it when that crop isn't being farmed. And now that acreage is regenerative farming acreage, because it has a cover crop. Cover crops are great. It keeps the topsoil from blow, from blowing away, but it doesn't cooler.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: There's a lot of.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it doesn't change what was grown.
Right. Like, it doesn't make the corn regenerative.
[00:10:09] Speaker A: I see.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: And we, we talked a little bit about that in our organics discussion, in that the product isn't what's organic it's the land that is certified organic. So if your land is regenerative, then your corn that you grew is regenerative, although you aren't doing anything different with that corn.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: So they're making these moves and they're putting all of this money, these corporations are putting all of this money into regenerative practices, or at the very least, they're putting it into a pr campaign saying they're going to be changing to regenerative practices over the course of the next, I don't know, 2030. They've got a lot of. 2030 is a big number that a date they like to use and changing over to.
It's kind of a far out there date. But they're going to achieve these initiatives by these dates.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: And again, I feel I'm going to be the devil's advocate on this podcast. I think this happens a lot with big companies. They say they're going to do a thing by a far out date, and it makes a whole lot of headlines when they make that statement. I was reading an article this morning. There are people who are protesting Kellogg's because in the early 2010s, Kellogg's said that they would stop using food dyes by 2018. They're protesting them right now.
[00:11:42] Speaker A: I think Casey means sent that out in her email.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: They're protesting right now because I didn't even see that. But they're protesting right now because in things like Froot loops and apple Jacks, there are still food dyes in the United States. However, in Canada, no artificial dyes.
They're using carrot juice and watermelon.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: There are other ways to make it.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: And other things, but in the US, they're not. But what made the headlines was back in the early 2010s when they said, we will stop using artificial food dyes by 2018. Well, now it's 2024, six years later, and they still haven't.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: They haven't. And somebody, people are finally protesting.
[00:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah, now they're protesting. But from a company perspective, big, huge pr win back in the early 2010s. We're gonna stop using artificial dyes by 2018? Well, 2018 comes and goes and they're still using artificial dyes. Right. So these companies can. It's a huge, and it's a common practice, actually to make these big, huge claims. But you use far out dates.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: I think a very popular fast food chain tried to do that with their chicken. They were going to do some big moves on what they were going to do with their chicken and they were going to make it better, and they set a way out their goal. They were unable to achieve it. I'm sorry, that's just too hard.
Not going to do it. But you get this big flash pan headline, hey, we're awesome and we're going to do all these great things, but it turns out it's just not feasible, quote unquote, and or profitable.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Like, yeah, shack. For each one of these companies, they are for profit companies who answer to shareholders.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: And the shareholders expect a profit out of the company. That's what businesses do. At the end of the day, it all has to be towards profitability.
This particular marketing campaign right now of regenerative agriculture from these big corporations, it looks like it's going to lead to profitability.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Well, you know, they say never let a crisis go to waste. Never let a trend go to waste either.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: And this is taking advantage of both. It is fairly accepted across the world stage at least, that there is an economic crisis. I'm sorry, an environmental crisis.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: And this, all of these companies that we've mentioned so far, it is very easy with a very short Internet research to find how this regenerative agriculture push plays into their environmental, social and governance esg scores. So these things are, all of their regenerative agriculture moves initiatives are all being reported and recorded and are a factor in their ESG score.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: Right. So they are going to use these, this regenerative ag claim to reduce their carbon score.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: And that's a perfect way of saying it too, to reduce their carbon score so they can, they can figure things up and say, okay, as we've talked about, let's just use the COVID crops again, as we've talked about, those millions of acres that are now going to be considered regenerative acres are going to be sequestering. A scientist will figure out some big number of carbon that will be sequestered by the COVID cropping.
[00:15:25] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: And then instead of making any changes to transportation or energy, now this carbon that they're sequestering over here on their fields or production pollution just offsets the carbon that they're actually producing when they're making their product, when they're transporting their product, when they're using the energy that it takes to make their product. So these things over here are expensive in order to change the type of energy you use or in order to change the way your product is produced. That's expensive.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: Comparatively very, very cheap to plant a cover crop.
And yet you can use the COVID crop to offset the carbon emission from your other thing. So your score is lower.
Are you making an impact yes.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: Is it as big as much as you claim?
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Maybe not.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Maybe not.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: Hmm, interesting.
So as they begin to claim this regenerative, I don't know, label, we saw this once before, or we have seen this, we're still witnessing it right now. When large corporations and governments grab hold of a label and they take that label and for, and they co opt it, they begin to own it.
You, sir, are not allowed to use the word organic on your product.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: I cannot use the word organic on my product. Although.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: Would you consider your product actually organic?
[00:17:11] Speaker B: Although our product is organic.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: Right. But we cannot use it because we have not gone through the United States Department of Agriculture to get a certification for this land or the way that we farm.
[00:17:24] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: So we cannot use it.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: That's correct.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: We can currently use regenerative farm.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: How long can we use that?
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Until the government defines it and then puts the same type of regulations or restrictions on it that they have with because.
[00:17:39] Speaker A: And can that happen? Absolutely. Back in the 1940s, the organic kind of movement began. Between the 1940s and fifties. It grew. By the time you get to the 1990s, organic farming has become a bit of a thing. In fact, you were involved with organic farming back in the early nineties.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: Yeah. In 1990, the government stepped in and they took over organic, like the movement was growing. And that's when their first organic act happened in 1990. In 1994 95, I was fresh out of the university with and went to work for an environmental engineering company, a small startup company. We worked for large scale agriculture. I spent most of my time on, you know, 1000 plus cow dairies. And we had a patented process for converting cow manure into a stable soil. And that soil had some fertilizer properties, nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: So essentially you guys were taking the cow manure from the dairies, the washout basically, and you guys would turn that into a really organic soil.
And it was good.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And we were marketing that to this really niche, small fringe, fringe group of farmers down in south Florida. I remember driving over to Fort Myers. I still haven't found a suriname's pepper, by the way, this organic farmer. I grew suriname's for a year or so. What an amazing habanero and I still can't find. Anyway, we were marketing our soil product with fertilizer type properties to organic farms and organic farmers. But it was a very small group of folks that were, I don't know, sort of wacky and crazy, like in the mid nineties. It certainly wasn't mainstream like at all.
[00:19:52] Speaker A: No.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: But what happened was this organic movement was farmer led and it started with these small farms and small farmers. And by the, say, early two thousands, well, by 2002, the government had stepped in and made the regulations on exactly what has to happen for it to be considered organic.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Yeah, the organics something or another act, whatever the organic act that came out of defined it and they set the regulations. And then once they did that, you had to follow exactly what they said in order to be able to get your certification and your label. And while there may be good things, a lot of times there are good intentions with making sure that customers, if you're going to say organic, we need to know that you're actually doing that if you're going to put it on a label, because we have consumer protection in this country. And so. Well, I'm just saying.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: So here's what happened with that. As soon as you define it, it allows companies to find the loopholes and large companies now get involved. So the small farmers that formed the organic movement are bought. The first thing that happened was large companies went in and bought out those small farmers and now they're organic farms.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: And then I. By like, by the time we get to where we are today, let's just skip ahead.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: Well, let me back up just a little bit. About ten years ago, my BFF, she bought organic food and I'm like, organic food?
We don't buy no organic food. I got four kids to feed. Are you kidding me? I can't afford that. Fast forward to today. An organic food is ubiquitous in the grocery stores and they have somehow or another made it kind of affordable. You can go to Costco and get all the organic veg and all that that you want. And I'm kind of like, where? Scratching my head, like, where is all this organic food coming from? Which we did an entire podcast on.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: The highlights are 75% of the produce purchased in the United States that is labeled organic is imported. And only 2% of imported organics go through any kind of USDA inspection.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: So here we go with or the organic label is not now what it once was, period.
It doesn't mean what it did.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: It started as a grassroots farmer movement that was truly rooted in wanting to do things better, is now a label which demands a higher price.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Price back to profitability, using a label and loopholes to create profit.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: Is that where we're going with Regen?
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Well, I think it is, actually.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: The likelihood is there.
[00:23:01] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: Whenever you get this many millions of dollars involved from major corporations and you know, they're going to start lobbying.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Yeah, my, so this one is a little bit more difficult than organic, I think, because regenerative agriculture can mean so many different things to so many different.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: People in different regions. Right. Like where you are geographically.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: That's right. To some people it's about water and water usage and, you know, reducing runoff and such. To others, it's all about soil and soil health and everything to do with the soil. To others it's about stop deforesting. You know, I mean, like, there's, there's so many different things that regenerative agriculture can mean that it's going to be a difficult thing to, for any agency, be it government or like World Economic Forum, I mean, you know, like any of these places, to step in and slap a one size fits all definition on regenerative agriculture is going to be difficult. So the organic standards, you know, you must, you must, you must, you can't, you can't, you can't.
Okay, now you're organic.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Like for, for that, it'd be like.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: You have to, you have to, you have to, you have to, you have to.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: Yeah. For regenerative, though, it that that becomes more difficult. So I think that, I think that it will be more difficult for a government agency to step in like the USDA did with organic. And I don't know that the companies, while having the organic definition, allowed them to find the loopholes.
I don't know that they're going to want a government definition for regenerative agriculture because right now they can make it mean whatever it is they need it to mean.
If they want it to mean cover cropping, if general Mills wants it to mean cover cropping, then that's what it means. It's regenerative agriculture. If Danin wants it to mean no cow farts, then there it is. They're doing regenerative agriculture. So as long as it's open ended or without definition, as long as it's like that, then these companies can use the term to mean whatever it is they want it to mean and get the benefit out of it. So I think in this one.
[00:25:33] Speaker A: So with a lack of accountability, how do you bring in accountability without governmental regulation?
[00:25:41] Speaker B: There are ways of doing it. You could have, like the corporations could get together and form groups, which is how they started with organics.
The groups of organic farmers would get together and basically certify each other to say, hey, yes, we're all following the standards that we all agree would lead to what we agree means organic. So, like, there are ways of doing that.
I don't know, from a consumer perspective, I think, and that's hard. I think you can't be, you won't be able to be lazy on this one. You're not going to be able to just say, oh, I saw a label. I saw a label and region verified. And thus, what does that even mean? Verified by who?
[00:26:30] Speaker A: By who? Because there's not an entity currently.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: I mean, you know, the Savory Institute has some stuff like, but like, there's, there's no generally recognized label or agency or anything that says, yes, your, and again, there's no definition of it. Right. So, like, yes, what you say is regenerative agriculture. You're doing well. I don't know that there's even, like, how useful is that? Because you defined it.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:06] Speaker B: You defined it for you.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Yes. You're doing your definition.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
You know, so, like, I think on this one, if you, from a big company perspective, that they're going to make headlines, they're going to say huge numbers that are going to be spent, y'all. The regenerative agriculture, from a business perspective, in 2023, it was just over $8 billion. By the early 2030s, so say seven, eight years, it's supposed to be over $23 billion. That's the forecast growth. So it's forecast to almost triple in the next, say, seven to eight years.
[00:27:45] Speaker A: It is the way that farming is going. And if a farmer doesn't know that already, they need to get knowing that, because there is a movement. People are moving over there to the point. Corporations are wanting farmers to farm like this in one manner or another. So they get on board now, because I'm sure there is money to be made in this type of farming by switching over. There's less inputs, there's more profitability. There's all kinds of benefits to regenerative farming, whether you do corn or cows.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: And we love it. Like we do it. Yeah. So, like, I'm saying some negative things about the companies that are talking about going regenerative, but.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Like, I'm saying that from a corporate perspective, like, there are oftentimes ulterior motives. Sure, regenerative agriculture is the way of the future, but regenerative, yeah, that's what we do.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: And regenerative agriculture is the restoration of degradation and land in the United States of America. And if you're in England or Australia or Canada, I'm sure it's very similar in your parts of the world. It, our earth, the dirt is degraded due to multiple years of agricultural practices that took from the land and to restore the biodiversity, to restore its capability to be able to produce life is what we're after. Yeah, that is what we're after. When we talk about regenerative agriculture and whether you're in soybeans or whether you're in sheep, we want to be able to produce life from the dirt and for that dirt to be full of life. Yeah, I'm sorry. Turn it into soil. Yeah, we're after that soil.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:42] Speaker A: And go ahead.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: So I think that we're at a, at a moment in time where the small farmer can actually do this. Like right now? Yeah, like right now.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: Educate yourselves and start.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: Educate yourself and make the switch to regenerative agriculture. Sustainable farming practices. Like say, there are a lot of things. And I think that we're at what is still the leading edge of this movement with regenerative agriculture. So I think that there's time to get in right now. I think by the time that this industry doubles, triples in size over the next less than a decade, it may get to be watered down to the point of organics to where the small farmer. There may be more regulation than you can afford, there may be more regulation than you can do as a small farmer.
The potential that it, it gets, I don't know, taken away from us, sort of like organic.
[00:30:45] Speaker A: But whatever happens to at that level, your land is still better?
[00:30:50] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: You're still producing, you know, you're, you're still making a better decision and choices and styles of farming for your land and for your farm than if you, if you stay in the conventional model.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: That's right. So from a consumer perspective, what I would say is educate yourself. Don't be one of the 71% that really have no idea what regenerative agriculture is. But it sounds good. So I'll buy it. Be one of the 29% that can actually have a conversation about what it is, because like I said, there's no specific definition, but I think it would be, be worth your while to be able to have a conversation about regenerative farmers.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: So before we became regenerative farmers, we wanted to be regenerative farmers. And while we were wanting to do the job, while you're still working in the Pentagon, we started studying. And one of the first books that we got, Guru in the regen ag space, Gabe Brown.
Dirt to soil. One family's journey into regenerative agriculture. He went from traditional ag doing monocrops to full up regenerative ag. He got his animals grazing his lands and restoring his soil. It's a beautiful story that their family transformed their farm in North Dakota into a flourishing regenerative farm. If you don't know who he is, look him up. Gabe Brown the book is dirt to soil.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: He's got some great TED talks as well. If you prefer to spend 15 to 20 minutes listening to him, then to spend the time to read the book as a consumer. Some great TED talkers, not just farmers. Gabe brown yeah, no, I'm with you. And then I think, I don't know that we'll continue to beat our small local farmer drum. The, I think the best way for you to know where your food is coming from or how it's made or what goes into it is talk to a farmer, go visit the farm, watch how they're doing things and see if that, if their practices jive with the way you want your food grown.
[00:33:15] Speaker A: Transparency and authenticity. I think as we move into a world where we are, we're, we're digitized. And with AI, I'm a fan, you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm just saying transparency and authenticity are going to become key in knowing what a thing to be true. You know, you got to be able to see it. We had a family out just this last couple days ago. Hey, we want to see your farm. Come on.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Come on.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Where do you do this? How do you do that? Let's go look. And they're kind of interested in farming, too, so let's educate. And that is, I think that's where it's going to be. Key as we go forward is transparency.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: Yep. Educate yourself. Support your local farmers.
[00:34:06] Speaker A: Yep. Hope you guys enjoyed this podcast. And until next time, bye, y'all.
[00:34:11] Speaker B: Bye, y'all.
